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“PC278.5” Arresting Moms, at least, for Felony Child-Stealing…

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Parental Child Abduction
is Child Abuse

by Nancy Faulkner, Ph.D

Presented to the
United Nations Convention on Child Rights
in Special Session, June 9, 1999,
on behalf of P.A.R.E.N.T.
and victims of parental child abduction.

© Nancy Faulkner 1999-2006

Interesting:  The NCJRS National Criminal Justice Reference Service

National Criminal Justice Reference Service

Seems to sort “child-stealing” under two main headings:

Search results for: child-stealing
Results in NCJRS Spotlights
Family Violence 
Trafficking in Persons 

This would be coherent with the recent Click-Hill case, as the girl disappeared after allegations of child abuse.  The other reason for child-stealing (see “Garrido,” and others) might be for personal sexual abuse by strangers, or prostituting kids.

Two reasons I can think of might be to protect a child, or to punish the other parent.  Authorities ought to get which is which straight…  (More on the NCJRS info towards end of this post)

pc 278.5 IS (California) Penal Code 278.5.

I have come to believe this law was written for men, not women, to get their kids back.  I would like to hear of any California woman whose children of around that age were actually returned to her under this code.

We already know of women in this and other states who have been incarcerated for much lesser custodial interference (see Oconto, WI blog, and “Lorraine.”  Or, Joyce Murphy.



It reads as follows:


(a) Every person who takes, entices away, keeps, withholds,
or conceals a child and maliciously deprives a lawful custodian of a
right to custody
, or a person of a right to visitation, shall be
punished by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year, a
fine not exceeding one thousand dollars ($1,000), or both that fine
and imprisonment, or by imprisonment in the state prison for 16
months, or two or three years, a fine not exceeding ten thousand
dollars ($10,000), or both that fine and imprisonment.
(b) Nothing contained in this section limits the court’s contempt
(c) A custody order obtained after the taking, enticing away,
keeping, withholding, or concealing of a child does not constitute a
defense to a crime charged under this section.

Do you see the word “SHALL” in there?

Here’s 287.7, which indicates circumstances — unbelievably, it seems – -in which a parent or someone COULD take, entice, or conceal a child.  It is to handle possible abuse or imminent harm to the child.  (Child, FYI, is defined as under 18 in this law).

(a) Section 278.5 does not apply to a person with a right to custody of a child who, with a good faith and reasonable belief that the child, if left with the other person, will suffer immediate bodily injury or emotional harm, takes, entices away, keeps, withholds, or conceals that child.

(b) Section 278.5 does not apply to a person with a right to custody of a child who has been a victim of domestic violence who, with a good faith and reasonable belief that the child, if left with the other person, will suffer immediate bodily injury or emotional harm, takes, entices away, keeps, withholds, or conceals that child.
“Emotional harm” includes having a parent who has committed domestic violence against the parent who is taking, enticing away, keeping, withholding, or concealing the child.

 (c) The person who takes, entices away, keeps, withholds, or conceals a child shall do all of the following:
(1) Within a reasonable time from the taking, enticing away, keeping, withholding, or concealing, make a report to the office of the district attorney of the county where the child resided before the action.

In other words, such a person shall, as an adult, give an account to the authorities of his or her reasons for the devastating action of removing a child from a parent.

NOW HERE WE ARE IN THE CLICK-HILL CASE, and a mother disappears with a daughter (mid-1990s, right when VAWA and NFI had gotten started), having accused the father of child molestation, after which he got (apparently) unsupervised time with the girl, again, then disappears.

Here’s an article by Robert Salonga:

Resurfacing of Walnut Creek girl highlights strains of parental abductions

By Robert Salonga
Contra Costa Times

Posted: 03/05/2010 04:45:10 PM PST

Updated: 03/05/2010 05:35:35 PM PST

WALNUT CREEK — The arrest this week of a woman who took off with her 8-year-old daughter in 1995 during a child custody dispute is being lauded by police and missing child experts as an exceptional event.

In some ways, it wasn’t an exception at all.

Parental and family abductions account for nearly 97 percent of child abduction reports in the state. In Contra Costa County, all 29 abductions reported in 2008 involved family, and just one of the 64 reported in Alameda County that year was committed by a nonrelative.

Click said Friday that he divorced Wendy Hill in the early 1990s, and their relationship became estranged after he was granted primary custody of their daughter. When he went to pick her up from his ex-wife’s Redlands home in the summer of 1995, they had moved out. He never saw Jessica again, he said.

This sounds to me like a custody-switch; another version (below) says he got unsupervised visitation…  There were allegations of child molestation, which is every bit as much a crime as child-stealing, but is often not handled as such in family law system.

Here’s another one…

Man waits to reunite with daughter

found 14 years after being abducted

as a 7-year-old by her mother

March 5, 2010 |  4:26 pm

A woman who vanished 14 years ago with her 7-year-old daughter was arrested Tuesday in Monrovia and her daughter was located unharmed, authorities said Friday.

Wendy Hill, 52, was spotted at a local Claim Jumper restaurant and arrested on suspicion of abducting her own daughter.

Jessica Click-Hill, now 22, was contacted by authorities after the arrest. She is believed to be living out of state.

“I’m just so excited that Jessica is found and well and that, physically, she’s fine,” said the girl’s father, Dean Click. “She’s got family who haven’t gotten to be with her, to spend Christmas or Thanksgiving together, so we’re looking forward to reconnecting with each other.”

Click said that since his daughter is an adult, authorities will not release her contact information. “At this point, she will have to come to me,” he said. 

The father said he and his ex-wife were in a custody dispute when Hill cleaned out her Redlands apartment in the fall of 1995 and left with the girl.

Click said he lived in Walnut Creek in Northern California at the time and for years had not been able to visit his daughter without a mediator present. [[he probably means supervised visitation.  Mediation is something different.]]  He said at the time he’d been accused of molesting his daughter, a claim he denied.

He said he ultimately was exonerated and that his rights were restored for full, unsupervised visits. On his first visit, he said he celebrated by bringing his parents along and taking Jessica out to lunch.

On his second visit, he said he arrived at the apartment complex and found that his ex-wife and daughter had left.

Authorities said Hill changed her name to Gail Jackson and moved from state to state. She was sighted outside Tampa, Fla., and at one point lived in Boston, authorities said.

A warrant was issued for her arrest in 1996 out of Contra Costa County, and the FBI issued its own warrant a year later.

Click said he kept in touch with authorities, but leads were few and far between. Then a tip came in several months ago from the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children about the mother’s alias and her location, said Sgt. Tom Cashion of the Walnut Creek Police Department .

Hill flew to Los Angeles, apparently for a business meeting, and was picked up Tuesday at the Monrovia restaurant, Cashion said.

She has since been taken to Northern California, where she was being held on $250,000 bail.

Click said he was asked by prosecutors if he wanted to press charges.

“I said ‘yes’ because she’s been a thief and she’s taken away those years that I did not get to spend with my daughter,” Click said.

— Amina Khan


Here’s another version, from a blog apparently local to the area she was stolen from.  March 4, 2010:  This isn’t quite current — the mother is now out on bail.



8-year-old Walnut Creek resident Jessica Click-Hill was allegedly abducted by her mom in 1995, and today, the Walnut Creek Police announced they found the girl, who’s now 22-years-old, and arrested her mom for parental abduction.The following is from the Walnut Creek Police….

Walnut Creek Police Detectives took Wendy D. Hill into custody for the parental abduction of her eight year old daughter Jessica Click-Hill in Los Angeles.

This case started in 1995 when Jessica’s father Dean Click reported to Walnut Creek Police that he believed his wife had abducted their child, Jessica. Detectives worked the case and in 1996, the Contra Costa County District Attorney’s Office filed charges against Wendy Hill and an arrest warrant was issued for her PC 278.5.

In 1997, the FBI issued an unlawful flight to avoid prosecution warrant (UFAP warrant). Recently, Walnut Creek Police and the FBI were alerted by NCMEC regarding a possible location for Wendy Hill and Jessica.

WCPD and the FBI followed up on the information and started their search. On March 2, the FBI located Wendy Hill in Monrovia (Los Angeles County) and arrested her on their UFAP warrant.

Walnut Creek Detectives were immediately sent to Los Angeles where they took custody of Wendy Hill.

The FBI has also located and made contact with Jessica.

Early this morning, detectives booked Wendy Hill into the Martinez Detention Facility in Martinez and she is being held on $250,000 bail.


The “California Family Institute” founder boasts (on the site) how he was one of the first to get a substantial reward under this law… Here’s the resume…(portions of it):


Martindale Hubbell A.V. (VERACITY, Highest Possible Lawyer Rating by Judges and Peers, Preeminent National Lawyer Directory Listing):

California Divorce Attorney, Best interest of Child Advocate, Accomplished Victorious Lawyer:

I. Professional Leadership (42 Years Family Law Experience):

  • Chairman of American Bar Custody Committee 2003
  • Chairman of CA State Bar Custody & Visitation Comm., two terms
  • Chairman of CA Trial Lawyers – Family Law Section Mem. Comm.
  • Chairman of American Bar Association – Family Law, Law Practice Economics Committee
  • Chairman of American Bar Interstate Custody Task Force Committee; UCCJEA (Uniform Child Custody Jurisdiction Enforcement Act)
  • Chairman of American Bar Association – Family Law, Practical Use of Computers Committee
  • Chairman of California Family Law Institute
  • Chairman of California Custody Commission
  • Chairman of Santa Monica Chamber of Commerce – Legal Committee
  • Chairman of Santa Monica Bar Association – Family Law Committee, Three Terms
  • Judge Pro Tem in Los Angeles County Superior Family Law Courts 20-years
  • Family Law Mediator in Santa Monica, Torrance & LA Central District Superior Courts, 24-years
  • Executive Member of the American Bar Association – Continuing Education Committee
  • Executive Member of the American Bar Association – Economics of Practice Committee
  • Secretary of California State Bar – Custody & Visitation Committee, Two Terms
  • Produced and Moderated a Course on Negotiations – 1988 Joint Meeting of California State Bar, Child Custody, Support and Division of Property Committees

II. Legal Achievements:

  • First CA attorney to try a Grandparents’ rights suit (January 1970) (Petrikin)
  • First CA attorney appointed by children to represent them as individuals (June 1984) (Ryan)
  • First CA attorney to file suit against an abducting parent under Penal Code 278.5, for $2.5 Million (1985)
  • Largest child abduction award litigated in the United States, $12.4 Million (July 1993) (Wang)
  • Rewrote and expanded CA Civil Code 4606, “Children’s right to an attorney” (1985), expanding childrens rights to an attorney (Ryan)

III. Teacher:USC Law School, Advanced Family Law & Divorce Litigation classes. All courses have been certified and accredited by the California State Bar Family Law Specialization Committee for attorney certification as family law specialist since 1986 to present.

While I’m at it, let me point out this site was SPECIFICALLY called a site addressed to MEN on an information sheet at a law library near a courthouse in Northern California.    Look at the connections this person has, and the functions he has worked, in the family law venue.  It is unbelievably interwoven…

This is the same site, where, while women are being told that conflict is bad, and if they have “conflict” with their ex, their heads need to be examined (let us appoint someone official, that we have trained), while apart from this, sites friendly to fathers have pages like this one:


Evil unanswered, is evil supported. You cannot allow evil to exist, and you cannot fight it with evil. Evil resisted by evil means, contaminates the resistor. The end that justifies the means is an imperfect and flawed concept. No end justifies evil, hurtful, injurious and mean behavior to others or against innocence.

The very concept of mediation and supervised visitation, parenting plans, etc., in the family venue is a brainchild of increasing noncustodial parent visitation time, when due process, fact-gathering, and evidence wouldn’t.  The Family Law venue IS a violation of due process, and it IS a venue where the end (“required outcome– more noncustodial parent time [[noncustodial parent being, “father,” as far as the intent of such programs]] justifies the means, and as such, might be characterized as “evil.”  IF the concept is justice, and due process.

Evil flourishes by creating distraction, misdirection, trust, ease, inattention, enjoyment, false pride, etc. If one were asked, “What do you do?”, the answer could ask “I wage war against evil, in all of its myriad forms and colorations, at all times, places and at all costs.”

You cannot face evil on impulse; it thrives on such action. You cannot defeat evil with anger . . . anger makes evil burn brighter. You can only cut down evil with cold, fierce force driven by the vision of right, honor, truth, and godliness. Evil is so opposed to these forces that anything else simply exacerbates the evil.

Evil is heartless by necessity. Both it and the person possessed by it see circumstances and events with the view of a malignant narcissist. All things that do not agree with their view of the world are immediately labeled “Deadly Opponents” in an opposition to the self-appointed right of the evil person to their sole view of what is right and wrong, what is proper behavior and what is not, what should and should not be said, or done . . . how things should or should not be done.



SO when is a crime not a crime?  Or a law against felony child-stealing not a felony or not applicable?


When someone in authority says it’s not.  And that’s up to whoever decides to prosecute, or, alternately, decides NOT to prosecute. This is NOT up to the parent, but to the reporting officers, and after that, the D.A. 

When it is bounced to family law, and ends up as a check mark on a mediator’s report form. 

I just searched the well-known “NCJRS” on “Child-stealing” and got these results.  notice — they aren’t exactly “current,” for the most part (note years).

Results in Publications (Abstracts Only)
Parental ChildStealing
NCJ 078760, M W Agopian, 1981, (157 pages).
NCJRS Abstract
Parental Child Stealing – California’s Legislative Response
NCJ 074911, M W Agopian, Canadian Criminology Forum, 3, 1, 1980, 37-43, (7 pages).
NCJRS Abstract
Epidemic of ChildStealing – What Can Be Done?
NCJ 080631, B W Most, Current, 194, 1977, 40-44, (5 pages).
NCJRS Abstract
Problems in the Prosecution of Parental Child Stealing Offenses (From Parental Kidnaping Prevention Act of 1979, S 105 – Addendum, P 76-87, 1980 – See NCJ-77752)
NCJ 077753, M W Agopian, 1980, (12 pages).
NCJRS Abstract
Characteristics of Parental Child Stealing (From Crime and the Family, P 111-120, 1985, by Alan J Lincoln and Murray A Straus – See NCJ-98873)
NCJ 098879, M W Agopian; G L Anderson, 1985, (10 pages).
NCJRS Abstract
NCJ 036248, P T D’ORBAN, BRITISH JOURNAL OF CRIMINOLOGY, 16, 3, 1976, 275-281, (7 pages).
NCJRS Abstract
 Child Stealing by Cesarean Section: A Psychiatric Case Report and Review of the Child Stealing Literature
NCJ 140929, S H Yutzy; J K Wolfson; P J Resnick, Journal of Forensic Sciences, 38, 1, 1993, 192-196, (5 pages).
NCJRS Abstract
Parental Child Stealing – Participants and the Victimization Process
NCJ 085267, M W Agopian, Victimology, 5, 2-4, 1982, 263-273, (11 pages).
NCJRS Abstract

Here are Miscellaneous Abstracts and characterizations from these ties:

FROM “typology of Female Offenders.”  Kinda reminds you of Chesler “Women & Madness…”

Index Term(s): Case studies; Child abuse; Crimes against children; England; Female offenders; Kidnapping; Mentally ill offenders

(I beg your pardon, but due to internet access time, I’m simply copying and pasting.  Better option — check the links yourself).

“Young Caucasian Fathers”

Language: English
Annotation: Analysis of parental childstealing cases in Los Angeles reveals that this crime occurs after a divorce action and following a period of compliance with court-ordered visitation privileges.
Abstract: Study data came from cases screened for prosecution by the Los Angeles County District Attorney’s Office between July 1977 and June 1978, the first year in which California law made this activity illegal. A total of 91 cases were examined. The crime generally involved young Caucasians, with fathers generally abducting children from mothers awarded custody. The crimes occurred equally throughout the seasons of the year, but took place more often on weekend days than during the week. The parents communicated after the child theft in almost half the cases. The communication usually involved announcing the offender’s intention to keep the child, trying to influence the severed relationship, or justifying the crime. Surprise abductions and use of force were rare. Although just over half the abductions took place within 18 months of the divorce, 37 percent occurred 2 or more years after the divorce. The child stealing reflected the offender’s desire to maintain a full-time relationship with the child and to help reestablish the marital relationship. Additional California and national data suggest that about 1 child theft occurs annually for every 22 divorces. Further research should focus on other jurisdictions and other aspects of child stealing. One note, data tables, and 22 references are supplied.
Index Term(s): California; Child snatching; Crimes against children; Family offenses

IN OTHER WORDS, the young Caucasian fathers didn’t want their women to leave them, so to keep the mother attached, they stole the kids.  Nice…  It’s not necessarily that they loved the child, or were concerned about his or her welfare.

1980: Parental Child Stealing – California’s Legislative Response

. . . Prior to July 1, 1977, California law had provided that the father and mother of a legitimate unmarried minor child were equally entitled to custody, services, and earnings.

What is a “legitimate” unmarried minor child?  One whose parents were married?

Because parents had equal rights, neither parent was in violation of the law, civil or criminal, by taking and concealing the child in the absence of a court order giving custody to a particular parent. On July 1, 1977 the California legislature transferred child stealing from the civil to the criminal jurisdication and toughened sanctions and legal procedures dealing with child stealing. This California legislation is a significant effort toward clarifying numerous legal discrepancies and oversights wich have prompted parents to employ child stealing as an extra-legal method of securing their children.


I find it interesting that child-stealing went from CIVIL to CRIMINAL.

Now, depending on the context, and the prosecutors, it appears to me to be going straight back to CIVIL where protective parents (typically but not always mothers) are involved….  This was my case.  It was treated like a minor blip on the radar by a “mediator.”  I put the word in quotes, because what happened to us wasn’t “mediation” in any sense of the word, but a bypass of the judicial process, which otherwise would have shown missing kids!

When I search adding the word “parental kidnapping,” results differ:

Parental Abduction: A Review of the Literature
NCJ 190074, Janet Chiancone, 2000, OJJDP, (13 pages).

Overall, the research on parental abductions indicates that this type of crime can be traumatic for both children and left-behind parents and that the longer the separation continues the more damaging the experience becomes.

THAT would be an understatement! 


(some reformatting added 2017Aug ,when I approved a comment that had mistakenly been overlooked.  FYI, comments on this blog are few and far between, despite the number of views or followers showing on the front sidebar. I was working hard on current posts (this one now about 7 years old), which takes a lot of focus, and am less active on my own email.  I’ll try and remember to check it more recently for submitted comments from now on… //LGH.).  

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  1. What if there is incompetent court ruling from a corrupted Judge depriving mother from a custody of her child in a case that the minor was under mother’s full custody from age 0 till age 5 1/2 and there is NO single evidence against mother’s moral characteristics. As a consequence of this unjust order, that is proven to harm the child, the mother takes her child to her native country, which is the ONLY Country of citizenship of the father as well, and still the mother is considered as a parental abductor. What is happening next??? Please, can someone give an advice or an answer. Who is going to hold those so called judges, ignorant minor counsels, etc. responsible for the actual harm they did with their malignant rulings. Further, who is going to consider the fact that the children who are brought up outside of all this distructive conflicts and deteriorated atmosphere in the presence of unfitted parent are happier and healthier when having their extended loving family next to them, providing all they need for a better start in life? It is absolutely wrong to have mothers in jail before a fair trial is compleated in order to establish all factual data. Isn’t all this for the BEST INTEREST OF THE CHILD???!!! If so who is observing the best interest of the child having parent who the chlid loves and is so attached to put behind the bars? The incentive for protecting her child made her a criminal? A bail of $200,000???!!! It seems to me that this is not about the best interest of the child at all, rather is about the $$$$. What a pitty.


    March 9, 2010 at 3:07 am

    • Nadia — I feel for your situation, and in this respect, it’s my own, and of mothers across the US,a nd other countries also, through these family courts (see my Feedjit for who is following posts): You comment ~~
      “What if there is incompetent court ruling from a corrupted Judge depriving mother from a custody of her child in a case that the minor was under mother’s full custody from age 0 till age 5 1/2 and there is NO single evidence against mother’s moral characterist”

      ~~This is an entirely appropriate reaction, indignation, if not outrage, at unjust court decisions don’t match with the obvious facts, or deprive parents of access without due process, or stick kids with batterers and abusers until they turn 18. I doubt that all people are going to be held accountable, but what I am personally working towards is, as a U.S. Citizen, alerting taxpayers that their taxes are being used fraudulently in these courts, too often, in order to obtain “Big Brother’s” ideal social order, which includes a man in the home, regardless of what quality of man.

      ~~I can pray for you (and will, I still -miraculously, in context — persist in faith that a just God exists, and a judgment day IS coming, after some resurrections, if not before), and direct you the sites I link to here, such as NAFCJ.net or to encourage you to research the history of teh family courts in THIS country.

      ~~It sounds like neither you nor your husband are American (US) citizens, so I’m puzzled why your custody case was ruled on here. Was your child born here? Does someone have dual citizenship?

      ~~If you want me to look at some of the details of your case, for clues where help might be, say so in this comment, and I will email you off-line. What state did these things take place in? Women are starting to communicate on-line about these outrages as are (obviously) men.

      ~~In any court case, jurisdiction is a prime factor. Who has jurisdiction of your case (again, I’d expect that to be an off-line answer if you want to talk).

      ~~These injustices are going to take down the U.S. if something else doesn’t first, and relate to all citizens, not just the 50% or so who have divorced. It also applies to taxpayers who don’t even have children. The Bill of Rights either applies to all human beings, or some human beings are simply considered sub-human, and some federal policies have all but said that. There aren’t easy answers, and we each have to make decisions based on our own situations in the larger context.

      ~~ As to “WHO” is going to hold people accountable? The answer is NO ONE, if enough informed and committed people don’t start demanding it, and figuring out how to get it.

      Governor Paterson of New York is under fire for attempting to cover up domestic violence by an aide, and two of HIS top staff have quit in disgust over this, and over the dishonesty (at least not wanting to be associated with it in public). Governors and Congressmen (not to mention US Presidents) have all been caught cheating on their wives; we put up with this in leaders, but finally one wife didn’t — Governor Sanford. Governor Blagojevich of IL got ousted. We had a U.S. President resign in disgrace. Perhaps there IS hope for this country, if not for its judicial or educational systems. That hope resides in getting people off the sidelines and intelligently involved in their communities and in whether a relative, neighbor, or colleague is being assaulted at home, or has just had a parent abduct a child.

      Enough soapbox for today….
      By the way, I suggest you spellcheck sometimes (i should too, I know).


      March 9, 2010 at 11:27 am

  2. In reply to your request over any woman who have recovered their children under CPC 278.5, my mother recovered us after a three year, two month and 25 day search. We were the first successful case to be recovered and result in a conviction across state lines. I did not get involved in parental child abduction until our 25th anniversary of our kidnapping. I did not want to but given the nature of this crime now days I had to. I do believe that his total incarceration of only three months was a joke and only allowed my abductor to develop bragging rights and a sense of empowerment. Please feel free to contact me.


    Ken Connely

    April 4, 2010 at 9:38 pm

    • Ken –I’m curious why your last name doesn’t match the spelling on your site. BUT, after seeing the site, I’m going to post a page from it; hope that’s OK. I don’t have access to YouTube right now, but readers should know he’s talked about his experience ON youtube. ….

      I will have to wait & see in my own kids’ case how they will view this later, but I have met several people who were abducted (less than 3 years or more) as adults or young adults. Losing my kids tore my life in half, and I know it did theirs, in context. This should not happen.

      As I say above, there’s either a punish-the-ex motive, or a financial motive, generally. ALSO, there might be a protective (genuinely protective) or trying to CLAIM it’s for protection, i.e. “I’m abducting you to protect you” but actually doing it for unrestricted access by a child-molester or other purposes) motive.

      When I separated, I did it the legally way and never was so cruel as to completely cut off contact. This was not true many years later….and it happened in a context when i was growing independent and beginning to insist on boundaries, i.e., as stated in those court orders. I felt it was the mature thing to do and it was, and would’ve sufficed, had there been as mature individuals in the context, including in the courts at the time.

      On-lookers unfamiliar with the cases can’t always tell which is which, and any policy which can’t tell the difference is not going to be a fair one.

      I cannot tell you how much it hurt me to see press coverage — in my area, where I tried to stop this! — about mothers who kidnap, interviewing only the father.

      Ken has written a book about his experiences and has a website and youtubes speaking about it also.

      My time for this will come, but isn’t yet, as our situation is still too volatile and not entirely safe.


      April 6, 2010 at 11:50 am

  3. […] Arresting Moms, at Least for Felony Child-Stealing […]

  4. I know this is an old post but I am in a difficult situation in CA that involves 2 counties and I have fled from DV. I have done everything by the law from “GOOD Cause”, reporting DV, dealing with dfs, dv shelter, TRO, cps, DA’S and more yet I am in uncharted waters it seems because his lawyer (I didn’t have one) turned the TRO hearing into a child custody issue that became a 3 ring circus. Even the 2 DA advocates were blown away that I lost. Between proof and testimony I am left unprotected as is my child.. my child alone never wants to see the father. My child has been dragged through court with disregard to my child’s mental well being. Currently we reside in 1 county while he in another that we fled from. He has filed dissolution of marriage attaching custody with it. No law enforcement, lawyer, da, cps, or anyone else can tell me what my rights are or help us. It is beyond ridiculous. Most of our dv consisted of massive emotional, psychological, and verbal abuse that I cannot believe we survived. But now I understand why it took so many years to get out, why I am bordering on the wrong side of the law now, and why so many women either go back or submit to custody (shared or visitation) when they know it is WRONG, HARMFUL and DETRIMENTAL to their child’s well being let alone mine or my other child that has become just like his father including abusing me just as bad because I didn’t get out in time (he was 18 when I left). Because….The law is so polluted, left to interpretation, to individuals whether a single law enforcement officer or a judge to decide when little understanding or education gives them the right or ability to do what is right and just.. Instead like in my case, a judge 1 of just 2 here dealing in family law wanted tons of witnesses, proof was not enough, how credibility was determined was flawed, and yet he could see that i was severely uncomfortable and had difficulties even functioning being near my abuser. This kind of dv is so dibilitating that many don’t talk about it nor understand it. It is often an intricate web of multiple tactics used to control and manipulate, cause fear and destroy self esteem so that there is no hope or thought of escape. So impossible to comprehend and often hidden when in public that unless you are a dv survivor, you cannot relate. It is just that unbelievable…but real. Furthermore, each case is so different unlike a black eye that those abused rarely get justice hence these abused individuals turn around and stab 50 times their abuser, commit suicide, go crazy, or “abduct” their child(ren).
    I have developed depression of late, afraid to seek help for fear it will be used against me yet the whole ordeal has brought it on. O


    October 21, 2014 at 10:14 pm

    • I see a good expression of how you were affected by all this. The last few lines concern me, and I hope, pray and trust that you as a mother would not do any of the above, as I know I didn’t. For some reason I wasn’t tempted to, there were enough crazy people and behaviors in the situation, every year. I also have been changed by the long-term experience, losing both children and the ability to work in a profession I loved, and with standing clients for it, which was My livelihood and in a very real way THEIR ticket to college scholarships. My oldest daughter texts she was just accepted (after years apart from me) from a very reputable research university in a field (Graduate level research), and the younger one’s phone is currently cut off and as best I can tell, has spent considerable time homeless although to her credit, she DID get away from this region. I am encouraged that the other daughter also now will (both in their early 20s) and it remains for ME to get away from the toxic relatives. Right now my concern is less with the father than my side of the family. I thought we had two good parents growing up, but one does have to ask “what happened?” As I live in California, and they have for years before me, perhaps “it’s just in the water” may be part of the reality.

      This comment is old and the post is older (pushing 5 years). If whoever made it is still around, reading some of the explanations WHY may not change the situation, but it will explain it. I have recently been able to explain (in person) to a non-parent, NORMAL person, some of the material, and I think he’s become an activist and says will never look at a nonprofit (charity) the same way. I showed the tax returns. The money moves around, and if people are let to handle their own business properly, and laws were respected (and not in conflict with each other, as family law has attempted to usurp “domestic violence” subject matter, which makes an EASY case-dump for law enforcement (at least in my area, and case, certainly) there is a LOGIC to the system which of itself diffuses some of the craziness. It IS being done for profit and because some people are simply sociopaths (cold-hearted) and want the money (ethically, unethically, whatever), and others, dissociative (probably describes mainstream, as you indicated) and yet others, REALLY concerned, but don’t know what to do where, not understanding how it’s assembled (it’s taken me a while to comprehend, and a lot of work, too). Others, some of the advocacy groups, seem to be making progress in certain areas, but on closer examination are playing the rigged game, knowing where it’s rigged, and calling that “help.” I call that simply dishonest, and report on it, as I can.

      If you get this comment, please comment again and assure me you’re still around, haven’t gone to “the dark side” (criminal) and are doing what you can for physical and mental health, because you are a parent, and for yourself because you’re worth it. I’m no counselor, and have burnt up the 800, help lines under possibly similar situations (sounds like) in the past. I complied with court orders, and attempted to make it CLEAR that was my bottom line. RESULT? BOth kids taken overnight, with no legal or factual basis, and I was almost “put down” as a person, still resisting attempts to re-frame the situation as a character flaw on my part (what — not being able to stop abuse, after all those years? Showing up with it actually affecting me in some ways???). If i use the word “i” it’s labeled, but I am dealing with people whose every other sentence is “I, I’, I” and no significant detail to describe whatever it was they intended to label, name, defame, or say. Even to the courts. …. (It’s been a long day and week, and I am simply writing because I am…) This blog is still a resource, it’s a VOLUNTEER blog, and I have written it to at least defuse confusion, and at best, through major system change, based on actually seeing how that system works. There are already systems changes going on, systematic and deliberate, but not in the direction I think anyone who believes in INDIVIDUAL rights, would want to go. And if we have NO individual, enforceable rights outside a labeled, group membership, then we are not truly human in the highest sense. It requires SOME socializing (freely, not coerced, and not constantly moderated and mediated by some officious parent figure) but ALSO privacy, alone time, and independent action. ….. Read some Viktor Frankl if you can get your hands on it (The Meaning of Life). I know I did, and he went through a concentration camp, and declared, there is ALWAYS some degree of choice. So the thing is, to make the best ones at any point in time, and keep doing that. We were not physically designed to live without hope — it’s unhealthy. (Faith Hope, Charity — which last i’d call the gas in the tank when the first two seem in short supply. It’s probably what keeps me going day after day) ….

      Let's Get Honest

      February 24, 2015 at 9:13 pm

  5. My post was cut off but it is of no importance. My main concern is I am in danger of concealment for not allowing the father see the child. Yet every agency applauds me for what I’ve done ie. leaving for my child’s well being and mine, yet once out, there is no help because neither of us have physical injuries and because we got out. Now….If we stayed and something happened (it was escalating) then something would have been done. Yes, i would have been held accountable for NOT getting out! So I am dammed if I do and dammed if I didn’t. Leaving us in a precarious position as you stated, depending on a law enforcement officer or a single judge can put me in jail…delivering my child into the hands of her abuser regardless of all I have done to protect while staying within the law and keeping every single state agency apprised of our plight, what I am doing and until recenrly, where we are. Every minute if every day we live in fear. My child scans cars and faces to the point that my child flees and hides if she even sees one that resembles ours or him. This fear is what is detrimental, unhealthy, and unfair. I did not teach nor tell what to do. This is my child’s own response. Yet where are the agencies, non profits, dv advocates that scream to the world about dv and how to stop the cycle, about all the help available? Nowhere!! I’ve tried…no one seems to really have their act together and with the laws so confusing…no one will step up for fear of legal misinterpretation. He has already tried once to get me for abduction. This failed as I spoke to the detective, had an assault charge against him, and “Good cause” filed. Now I have nothing it seems but a bunch of useless police reports and other evidence that will not protect my child or myself from persecution of any kind. I am in state, child is in school, in touch with cps, DA’S, and others, but because I am keeping my child from the other parent…I could and may any day be arrested because of a ridiculous law that is poorly defined and left up to interpretation.


    October 21, 2014 at 10:36 pm

    • My delay in publishing the comment, AS I RECALL (on quick glance) is not the comment itself but that I myself have been under intense pressure from upcoming court hearings affecting my safety, and immediate and long-term future. Not that it’s new, but this is really developing into some mean-spirited behavior AFTER all the family court behavior, and using what appear to be some similar tactics. I’m still dealing with it, as we speak,and yes, it does over the years wear one down. I’m approving the comment (scanned it) sorry for the delay. I do also want to note, it’s more helpful to readers if there is some detail they can hang onto, objective (if it’s safe to reveal) or apply later. There’s also a place for expression and I know I’ve written sometimes like this also. I do remember the generic context, and wish you well.

      Let's Get Honest

      February 24, 2015 at 7:39 pm

  6. To recent commenter “RE” — may I ask, which two counties?

    Let's Get Honest

    February 24, 2015 at 9:15 pm

    • I am not sure my post got through. I will be watching. I’ve copied it so I may repost if needed.
      I hope you are well and safe.


      June 5, 2017 at 11:29 am

      • See last comments (added to this post). I hadn’t seen the submit, and corrected both that one and this one, today, 8/10/2017. It’s not an excuse, but working on this blog, diligently esp. in 2016-2017 (after a break in 2014 second-half through Jan. 2016), I tend to hyperfocus. Am also including a lot more annotated images which takes more time (both to make them and the layout once inserted), and looking at a wider ranger of topics. Both my children kidnapped (by father and girlfriend) just a few years before I started this blog, are now young adults; one has made a little more contact then the other (who it’s safe to say, remains estranged) over time. I’m still dealing with aftereffects as this affected prime working years and all working relationships (not to mention personal/social) in my own life. It sounds like you’ve gone through so much also. The post (comment) was well-written, and I’m sorry wasn’t approved timely. Pls. reply if you’re around to see this. I hate to see people go through hell for no good reason, and am still activist on getting these systems changed, and my own life out of the reach of the individuals who inflicted such harm over so many years (within the family). I am just not approaching the activism in the traditional manner. Please see table of contents (newer) and especially posts since 2016-2017. I DNR that we have talked off-line or privately under some other username, or previously on this post under some other username.

        Copying posts as you write them (I learned the hard way) is always a good idea. I keep a text file open for the purpose, but sometimes still get caught up writing and forget to do this before hitting “save.” Then a browser refresh may kick in (more common for mainline publications it seems). I don’t comment that much on others blogs, or journals as before, however, because I don’t think it’s the most effective way to communicate some of the more complex concepts I wish to be known. it’s more good for empathy, or links to other resources or perhaps searchable terms to shed light on the whole situation.

        I hate the hypocrisy of our country (agencies and major nonprofits within it, some of who get blogged here in) boasting about helping the status of women in other countries, or even in this one, when I know in depth how that works out, and how organizations, literally, censor information they have access to in order to “control the conversation.” They are never going to stop voluntarily; it’s up to the public to change the conversation, and refuse to have their on-line dialogues “framed” by information which could be as easily re-framed by opposing sides, instead of getting to hardline facts about systems ops. Hard facts of our own cases, as true as they are to us, and maybe documented also in the court paperwork (at least as the litigation having taken place) are not as easy to translate into causes the WHOLE public should get behind in their own interests. That’s why I keep taking it (more nowadays than before) not back to “the law” (which is self-contradictory from system to system, and besides that, so often not enforced even when it’s crystal clear, or a certain family court order is crystal-clear, which they aren’t always).. but to the financing of the various parts and where conflicts of interest are throughout, that needs to stop FIRST. That’s a tax matter. The paradigm shifting is continual, and we need to become aware how it happens, and how to talk back to where it’s inappropriate (which is, without informed consent, most of the time!). etc.

        Let's Get Honest

        August 10, 2017 at 6:23 pm

    • Hi this is Re – I know a few years have past. In all that I was going through, I couldn’t find my way back to you. I couldn’t access my email account for safety. It was my 3rd account created and somehow he had gotten in. I monitored, but could not open or respond to any emails. My post I screenshot thankfully. I can’t seem to post usin my original email so I am using another I have. Lol…safety. I was not in a good place when I posted previously. I was grasping at straws trying to find something to hold on to. How little help, laws, or info is out there to protect those that truly need it.

      I wanted to come back to see, no matter how much time had past if I ever received a reply. I couldn’t post too many details at the time without possibly endangering us or even for him just to see and use against me. He was a computer genius.
      I am glad you are safe. I am sorry you have had to go/going through all that you are. It sucks. Period. To rip your heart out would be less painful.
      We are safe and ok. So much has happened.
      You asked which two counties. They were Riverside and LA. Riverside was the family Court that majorly dropped the ball. Even the police at one point did.

      In the end with nowhere left to go while staying within the confines of the law, we returned to LA. I refused even with my family behind me, to flee the state. I knew I would lose in the end and my daughter’s life was too valuable. Psychologically damaging for us both returning, we still got through. It was a nightmare dealing with the court system and CPS. My abuser doing declaration after declaration to court to discredit me, to continue the abuse, and I saw no end in sight. I answered every declaration, stated the same thing with little to no emotion, made myself look reasonable even when I just wanted to do the opposite. He played every game he could, but G_d was on our side and did order minor’s counsel for my daughter and therapy.

      That counsel turned out to be a life saver. She stated in court clearly what she believed and saw and that there was no doubt that my daughter had witnessed and been subjected to major abuse. Yet the court was still determined that parental right trumped a child’s rights. My daughter was to do therapy and minor’s counsel, my daughter, and her therapist were to have the final say on custody. No psyche evaluation for her father, no therapy, no nothing. Fix the child enough to go back to their abuser. Wth? I knew there was a huge chance he’d get visitation or some kind of custody. California is notorious for putting parental rights before that of a child. I took the next step and called DCFS anonymously. I asked many questions. Explained what my daughter has said, how she feels, and what was happening in court. I was told that DCFS overrules Family court. No matter what custody was awarded, if DCFS disagrees, they will step in. All that needed to be done was for my daughter to tell DCFS exactly what she told me. That she was scared to death of him. That if put in a room with him she would kill him or runaway. That was all that was needed supposedly.

      I want to backtrack a moment to say that though I provided again ample evidence of domestic violence and requested temporary full custody or at least something that stated he had no rights and must refrain from interaction of any kind with my daughter, NOTHING was given. This was a volitile time. He was angry, stalking covertly, posting on FB things to discredit me and pictures of places he went. These places were where we lived, not him. The pictures were in front of stores we frequented and posted that he’s doing it for her. There was nothing I could have done if he chose to take her from school, show up and interact with her, or even keep her court ordered therapy private. HE HAD RIGHTS TO TAKE HER, TO KNOW EVERYTHING SHE DID!! Everything we left from, he basically could still do.

      A few months after that court hearing he was tragically killed. It devastated me. I wasn’t far enough into my healing to accept such a thing and I was still next of kin. My daughter on the other hand, cried 3 little tears, said well he was her father, looked at me and asked if she was mine now. I responded yes, but luv you belong to yourself, I am just your caretaker, your guide in life. She then said she was hungry and could she eat. That was it for her. She was safe and free of him…nothing else mattered. I did continue her therapy for over a year until the therapist told me that she compartmentilized and saw what was what. Not something children normally do. This made it so trauma wasn’t so damaging to her. She is doing great now and without her, we would have never gotten out. She’s my little hero.

      I did get help and I am still. The PTSD is quite bad. It doesn’t help that my son is back in our lives since his father’s death. He suffers from a type of Stockholm Syndrome. He cannot remember any of his childhood except from 6 month before I left till the present. That’s nearly 18 years missing for him. I am slowly working with him. Deep down he knows, he just can’t cope with the realization of who and what his father was. When he gets glimmers of the past, he remembers only the good. But psychologically he has triggers regularly which make him physically ill. Anxiety, vomiting etc. I am trying to get him to get help. I’m still in a constant state of disarray because I’m dealing with lawyers, DA’s, police, and in court nearly every month concerning the trial of one of my husband’s killers. It was a double hit and run, he was a pedestrian They were caught a month later as one was fleeing the country. Plenty of proof that they were drunk. Hoping once it is done, I can move forward…with a lot of trauma therapy.

      I found out so much more after he was killed. What he had in the works to win full custody. To prove me unfit, mentally ill, and discredit me. Part of it was he had hacked in my email, created a false FB account in my name, manage to link my bank account to FB, and get into my Google play. Large sums of money also disappeared so that he could claim he didn’t have money to pay any child or spousal support. That money still hasn’t been found. There was never a doubt that in the end it would come down to him or I. One would kill the other but for different reasons. He to win, me to stay alive.
      Thankfully G_d made the decision.


      June 5, 2017 at 11:32 am

  7. […] reference from the law, but from three law firms (which appear to be criminal defense-oriented) and my own 2010 blog {{<==worth a re-visit! gives numbers of local children stolen by a relative (over 80)  in […]

  8. […] reference from the law, but from three law firms (which appear to be criminal defense-oriented) and my own 2010 blog {{<==worth a re-visit! gives numbers of local children stolen by a relative (over 80)  in […]

  9. […] reference from the law, but from three law firms (which appear to be criminal defense-oriented) and my own 2010 blog {{<==worth a re-visit! gives numbers of local children stolen by a relative (over 80) […]

  10. […] reference from the law, but from three law firms (which appear to be criminal defense-oriented) and my own 2010 blog {{<==worth a re-visit! gives numbers of local children stolen by a relative (over 80) […]

  11. […] reference from the law, but from three law firms (which appear to be criminal defense-oriented) and my own 2010 blog {{<==worth a re-visit! gives numbers of local children stolen by a relative (over 80)  in […]

  12. […] reference from the law, but from three law firms (which appear to be criminal defense-oriented) and my own 2010 blog {{<==worth a re-visit! gives numbers of local children stolen by a relative (over 80)  in […]

  13. […] reference from the law, but from three law firms (which appear to be criminal defense-oriented) and my own 2010 blog {{<==worth a re-visit! gives numbers of local children stolen by a relative (over 80)  in […]

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