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Worshipping “Fatherhood,” in theory, policy, initiative, in practice — “Can we call it a Day?”

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My last example was from the UK.  So I decided to do some homegrown reporting.  It wasn’t hard:  I simply googled “Father’s Day Assaults” “Mother’s Day Assaults” and picked an East coast and a West coast newspaper, and searched the usual keywords:  “estranged”  (lots of crime comes with this word attached), “restraining order” and such.


Between knives, guns (the usual), and some belts and fists, plus getaway trucks, MOST of the results were the same with one exception:  a certain woman had been trained in security, and SHE exercised her 2nd amendment rights, and did not die the 2nd (or  more than 2nd) time the protective order (piece of paper) was violated.  This one mentioned no children, and I hope none were involved, as they were in, say Indiana (hiding in the closet) or Texas (sleeping in bed with Mom), or so forth.


The Indiana incident got me thinking, so I went back round to Senator Bayh, and pulled out a little more proclamation documentation on this Fatherhood thing, the hole down which we keep pouring money, but somehow,  – – I don’t know, perhaps it’s a little more detrimental than, say, Superman cartoons, which the average adults knows, after all, are Caricatures, not the real thing (at least, I hope).  I dono’t know many men that still try to fly without a real parachute or hang-glider.  But we DO know a lot of men who don’t take well to being, well, rejected.  And they ARE taking this seriously.  




So, I wish I could say, I was only an “expert” in the nice things like, working, teaching, performing, etc.  Unfortunately, over the years, I have come to recognize, along with the fact that HOLIDAYS can be very dangerous, some of the indicators that might have, were they heeded, saved some lives in the following cases.  Also, you will see one in which a certain thing DID save someone’s life — the woman having a gun, and a man violating (not for the first time) a protective order.  


Other than that, in California, I see, choking, possessive behavior, jealousy and stalking as indicators in the first one here.  Let’s count our lucky stars this one was a real estate agent and so went after the house (tried to burn it down with himself inside it) — but, alas, there was still a dead body — the suspected boyfriend.  In Indiana — along with Indiana, a hotbed of fatherhood woes, or initiatives, depending on how you view this — two teenaged daughters will be needing some therapy, as they heard, from a closet, “Daddy kill Mommy” (with a knife), on, you guessed, this national holiday, on which some Dads are honored, which is OK, and some, are, well, pissed off, and do something about it.


In Texas, a two TRYING to become (or produce) a statistic on this holiday is, thankfully, caught, and a third succeeded in killing the kids, but not himself, in a car.


In Massachusetts, a Father suddenly Remembered to Return (along with national policy, right?  Father-absence is a REAL epidemic.  Maybe he read that publication).  Anyhow, suddenly, he (with girlfriend in tow) remembers he has rights to his son, gets summer visitation for 8 weeks, culminating in a 7 year old boy, dead.  Both are charged, she, less so.  I wonder if child support had anything to do with this one.  The article doesn’t say.




Yes you — STILL, read.  STILL, 


Please do not, like the Massachusetts girlfriend, become a standby witness.  I might just charge you with denial — of public policies enabling this.  Could you have intervened?  By voting for someone else?  By refusing to fund them?  By reading about the policies, and then evaluating them in light of crimes committed on the holiday honoring the concept?


Fathers are important.  They are for life (like ’em or lose ’em).  It’s kind of like your ethnic background (I can no longer say, gender, obviously) — it is what it is, biologically.  However, the window dressing can certainly change.


Let’s stop proclaiming and blaring what fatherhood is from Washington, D.C., OK?  First of all, no one is perfect, so let’s pick some realistic standards.  Second of all, who are our leaders to talk?  The last Congressperson caught with his pants unzipped, I hear, was a South Carolina one, visiting Argentina (public relations?).  The last court-appointed psychiatrist, or maybe not court-appointed, but a CHILD psychiatrist, on trial for molesting young boys, to be on trial for this — well, the trial is in process.  And the last budgetary crisis is NOW.  Let’s put our money into teaching people about the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, and how for every DEBIT portion of one person’s balance sheet, there is a CREDIT of someone else’s. Let’s teach them to acquire assets, not work low-paying jobs, and let’s not sell pipe dreams, or false hopes — in the form of a protective order, or anything else.  OK?


President Obama sure has a fantastic wife, and she has been compared in some ways to Jackie Kennedy (as far as style and appearance).  However neither Jack, nor Ted (kennedy) nor Franklin D., and nor Bill C. has been faithful to their wives.  You want to be a great father?  Show your children how to pick one woman, and be faithful to her. And, train your sons AND daughters how to run and own businesses, and acquire assets, not debits.  Any honest dealings with daughters is going to let them know, this world is not equal YET, and you will probably be raising children or paying for someone else to raise them, so plan your life accordingly. Unless the plan is to opt out.  If you are going to maintain an astronomical hourly wage, that can accommodate child care if that’s the plan, hey, GO for it.  (And don’t marry a man that’s going to be jealous of your income, or education).  Be prepared to be single and solvent, and  — – — AND – — it is NEVER acceptable to:


Cut off access to finances, transportation, credit, schooling, or anything else in the name of “us.”


AND – – – know how to protect yourself.  And I’m not talking about Planned Parenthood, either.  Read on.








Take Time To Be A Dad This Father’s Day


Father’s Day is officially celebrated in countries around the world—on every continent but Antarctica. There are more than 64 million fathers in America, and one special day of the year when we should say “thank you” to all dads. Perhaps the best way to celebrate is to simply spend time together. Check out our resources that offer suggestions for family activities for this Father’s Day and every day.



(THis is a US MAP):


Programs and Initiatives

The State and local programs listed in this section are provided as a resource and starting reference point for fathers and families looking for individual assistance and services. Inclusion on this list is limited to State operated and HHS funded local programs, and DOES NOT constitute an endorsement of the program by the National Responsible Fatherhood Clearinghouse or the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, Administration for Children and Families’ Office of Family Assistance.

Yes, they are state-operated, and HHS-funded LOCAL programs, so HHS cannot beheld responsible, nor can NRFC.  They will pay for this, though.  I you click on a state you will be led to a list of links to state programs.  If you click on this links, a disclaimer will be posted before you get to the local ones, such as in Texas (On the list below for Father’s Day and Mother’s Day crimes committed both).


Select a State from the map below to view a list of Fatherhood and family-related initiatives and programs.






We have a Mom-slaying by an ousted Dad, witnessed by two daughters from Indiana, so I thought we should also hear from the Indiana Senator, Sen. Evan Bayh, who is (at least as of July 18, 2008) the “Co-Chair of the Senate Task Force on Responsible Fatherhood”




Lest you get confused, even though concepts — and colleagues — are indeed shared from Fatherhood.GOV and fatherhood.ORG, one is nonprofit organization.  This is a “Dear Colleague” letter, entitled, in Bold, “The FEDERAL COST OF FATHERHOOD ABSENCE.”


Not to be confused with a 1993 idea certain gentlemen came up with:

“In 1993, Don Eberly, a former White House advisor and civil society scholar, arranged a meeting of prominent thinkers((according to???}}}to discuss the growing problem of father absence in America. Mindful of the limitations of government social policy, {{I THINK IT FAIRLY SAFE TO SAY SUCH LIMITATIONS HAVE BEEN WELL OVERCOME BY NOW.  SEE the “*.gov” site}}  

Eberly also wanted to talk about the importance of civil society and cultural mores in contributing to positive social change.


“We realized,” said Wade F. Horn, a child psychologist who later became National Fatherhood Initiative’s President, “that the growing absence of fathers was the most consequential social trend in our culture—for families and for civil society. But public policy is a weak instrument for reversing the trend; the answer is in the broader culture.”


The attendees agreed that there needed to be an organization that would stimulate a broad-based social movement to combat father absence and promote responsible fatherhood. And thus the idea for the National Fatherhood Initiative (NFI) was born, grounded in the following propositions:

  • Fathers make unique and irreplaceable contributions to the lives of children
  • Father absence produces negative outcomes for their children
  • Societies which fail to reinforce a cultural ideal of responsible fatherhood get increasing amounts of father absence
  • Widespread fatherlessness is the most socially consequential problem of our time.

National Fatherhood Initiative made its national debut on March 7, 1994 with Eberly serving as President, Horn as Director, and David Blankenhorn as Chairman of the Board of Directors.


In 1996, Horn took over as President and Eberly assumed the role of C.E.O. Also, National Fatherhood Initiative’s national headquarters were moved from Lancaster, Pennsylvania to Gaithersburg, Maryland. The next few years saw National Fatherhood Initiative grow in size and reach, with an expanded resource center, contract work for the states of Virginia, Pennsylvania, Texas, and a privately funded regional initiative in Pittsburgh.


In 2001, Don Eberly and Wade Horn left National Fatherhood Initiative to accept positions in President George W. Bush’s Administration. The Board of Directors named Roland C. Warren, former board member and National Fatherhood Initiative Executive Vice President, as Presiden





Not to be confused with the 1995 Executive Memo by President Clinton.

In case you never clicked on the link, here is it, pasted right from:




June 16, 1995


SUBJECTSupporting the Role of Fathers in Families

I am firm in my belief that the future of our Republic depends on strong families and that committed fathers are essential to those families. 

I am also aware that strengthening fathers’ involvement with their children cannot be accomplished by the Federal Government alone; the solutions lie in the hearts and consciences of individual fathers and the support of the families and communities in which they live.  However, there are ways for a flexible {{IN DUE PROCESS, HABEAS CORPUS & OTHER CIVIL RIGHTS, ADHERENCE TO LAW, AND MOST CERTAINLY, BUDGETS}}, responsive {{To WHOM?  father’s rights groups, at least…}}} Government to help support men in their roles as fathers.

Therefore, today I am asking the Federal agencies to assist me in this effort, I direct {{ was that a question, or an order?  was it a direct question, or an indirect order??}} all executive departments and agencies to review every program, policy, and initiative (hereinafter referred to collectively as “programs”) that pertains to families to:

  • ensure, where appropriate, and consistent with program objectives, that they seek to engage and meaningfully include fathers;
  • proactively modify those programs that were designed to serve primarily mothers and children, where appropriate and consistent with program objectives, to explicitly include fathers and strengthen their involvement with their children;
  • include evidence of father involvement and participation, where appropriate, in measuring the success of the programs; and
  • incorporate fathers, where appropriate, in government initiated research regarding children and their families.


NOTA BENE:  He was correct to limit it to EXECUTIVE, because by law, he did not have legal authority over the other two branches.  THANK GOD WE HAVE TWO OTHER BRANCHES OF GOVERNMENT. THEORETICALLY, at least. 

I ask the departments and agencies to provide an initial report on the results of the review to the Vice President through the national Performance Review within 90 days of the date of this memorandum.

The information gained from this review will be combined with information gathered through the Vice President (Gore)’s “Father to Father” initiative and other father involvement programs to determine the direction of those programs for the future.  The National Performance Review, together with the Domestic Policy Council, will recommend further action based on the results of this review.

William J. Clinton

(Note:  President, at this time)



(I would tell you about motherhood.GOV or motherhood.ORG, if there were such a site.)






1993, 1995, 2008, and now here is some data from 2009.  A sixteen year run — are we DONE yet??


. . .  a Few Samples from around the US 

(since I kinda picked on the UK last post)




Before/After Father’s Day (and protective order)


Walnut Creek man charged in slaying of wife’s friend



By Malaika Fraley


Posted: 06/23/2009 03:09:42 PM PDT

Updated: 06/24/2009 08:07:45 AM PDT



MARTINEZ — Jealousy motivated a Walnut Creek man to fatally stab his estranged wife’s friend and then set fire to the Pleasant Hill home he once shared with the woman and their children, prosecutors said Tuesday.


Robert Hoselton, 39, was charged Tuesday with murder, arson and burglary in connection with Thursday’s (before Father’s Day) slaying of 42-year-old Pleasant Hill resident Manuel Gwin Jr.


Veronica Hoselton dated Gwin before she wed Robert Hoselton in 2006 and had recently re-established a friendship in search of support and advice over her troubled marriage, deputy district attorney Harold Jewett said. Gwin, a real estate broker, also may have known his attacker through a past real estate transaction.


“Undoubtedly, this was a crime that has origins in jealousy,” Jewett said.


A court ordered Robert Hoselton out of his family home on Mary Drive after he was arrested in April for choking his wife and threatening to kill her. He was subsequently convicted of misdemeanor battery.




Veronica Hoselton said in court documents used to obtain a restraining order against Robert Hoselton that her husband was “irrationally jealous” and convinced she was having an affair.





Gwin, 42, had been watching TV at his home on Dorothy Drive in Pleasant Hill on Thursday when Robert Hoselton arrived and stabbed him on the front porch, Jewett said.






Indiana man sought in wife’s killing arrested


The Associated Press 

Tuesday, June 23, 2009; 12:28 AM


BROWNSBURG, Ind. — An Indiana man arrested Monday night was accused of stabbing his estranged wife to death while his two daughters, 12 and 8, hid in a closet. Authorities said the older girl called 911 and told a dispatcher, “Daddy killed Mommy.”

Joseph L. Warnock, 41, was arrested about 9 p.m. in the same neighborhood of Brownsburg where he had once lived with his wife, Angela Warnock, 38, said Lt. Roger Call of the Hendricks County Sheriff’s Department.

The wife was found stabbed in her bed at home on Sunday night. {{FATHER’s DAY}}  Investigators say the couple was going through a divorce and she had a protective order requiring him to stay away from her and their daughters.

The killing came two days after the wife obtained a two-year extension on the order.

WOW:  She GOT the restraining order and she’s DEAD.  In the heart of Evan Bayh land.  I WANTED the restraining order, didn’t get it, and am short two kids, a profession, my family of origin, and a good deal of health, plus and a livelihood, and almost ten years of fully productive employment (spent instead fighting for separation and safety (not over yet)).  But all of us were (at last count) still alive.  

Detective Sgt. Charles Morefield said Warnock forced his way into the home through a patio door just before midnight Sunday and went to a bedroom where his wife was sleeping with the girls.

Police said that when he began stabbing his wife, the girls ran into a closet and hid there for at least 15 minutes while their father was in the home.

When he left, the 12-year-old girl called 911 and told a dispatcher “Daddy stabbed Mommy.”

Question:  Will he be granted custody after this?  It HAS happened, you know….  









WORCESTER – A 7-year-old boy died yesterday, the Worcester district attorney’s office said, after being attacked on Father’s Day by his father, who allegedly slammed the boy’s head into a wall.




A murder investigation is now underway, and authorities are reviewing evidence collected by investigators involving the attack on Nathaniel Turner, said Timothy J. Connolly, spokesman for the district attorney.


Police said that for at least eight weeks, the boy had been physically and mentally abused by his father, Leslie G. Schuler. (AGE:  36) The alleged assaults ended on Father’s Day, Sunday, with what police described as a vicious attack that left the boy hospitalized in grave condition.

Schuler and his girlfriend, Tiffany Hyman, were arraigned in Central District Court yesterday on charges stemming from the alleged assaults.

According to the boy’s family, it was just a few months ago that Schuler received a court order allowing him to have summer custody of Nathaniel, who for most of his life lived with his grandmother in Alabama.

Nathaniel’s family said that Schuler always knew he was Nathaniel’s father, but a few months ago he requested and received a court order to have DNA testing done to prove it.

Schuler then received a court order to have summer custody of the child. Nathaniel had been living in Alabama with his grandmother, who has legal custody, family members said.

Family members were upset with the Probate and Family Court for allowing Schuler to have summer visitation with Nathaniel.

© Copyright 2009 Globe Newspaper Company.


Same Story — Life or death at a Judge’s Order (Washington Post, AP)


Mass. judge allows boy, 7, taken off life support.



The Associated Press 

Wednesday, June 24, 2009; 7:05 PM



“WORCESTER, Mass. — A 7-year-old boy who traveled to the state to spend the summer with his father and who, prosecutors say, was severely beaten by him on Father’s Day can be removed from life support, a judge ruled Wednesday


The boy was physically and mentally abused by his father for about two months, police said. On Father’s Day, he suffered severe injuries when his father slammed his head into a bedroom wall with such force that it left a dent in the wall, they said.

The judge gave custody of the boy to his mother for the purpose of deciding whether to donate his organs. “

Schuler’s girlfriend, Tiffany Hyman, was charged with two counts of assault and battery. Police said it appeared Hyman, 28, didn’t strike the boy but could have intervened and stopped the abuse. She was held on $50,000 cash bail.



TEXAS (“Bound for the Rio Grande”?)



Father’s Day chase ends with arrest in Mission

By Katie Lopez
Tuesday, June 23, 2009 at 9:47 a.m.

A Mission man is behind bars after he allegedly tried to kill his wife and child on Father’s Day.

According to police, Gabriel Segovia punched his wife and then threw her and his 3-year-old daughter in his truck and took off.

While trying to get away from police, Segovia reportedly had his daughter on his lap and is accused of holding a knife in his hand.

Police say he kept repeating he was going to kill them both.

Segovia stopped and fled into the brush but was caught after authorities set up a perimeter.

The Mission man’s daughter was unharmed.

Police charged Segovia with evading arrest and aggravaed assault with a deadly weapon.

He’s being held on a $400,000 dollar bond.






Killing Kids worked.  Suicide, didn’t, quite


Father suspected of killing 2 children in Houston


The Associated Press 

Wednesday, June 17, 2009; 12:13 AM



(Tue. before Father’s Day):


HOUSTON — A father was suspected of shooting and killing his two children on Tuesday and then turning the gun on himself in an apparent attempted suicide, police said.

Police had been looking for the 8-year-old girl and her 6-year-old brother after their mother reported to authorities that “her estranged husband had called saying he had picked the kids up from the school and planned to drive them to an unknown location and kill them,” spokesman John Cannon said.





Now THIS is unusual 




Restraining order violated.  She had a gun, and used it.  


“”A Prince George’s County woman fatally shot her husband in an apparent act of self-defense Saturday after he attacked her at the Capitol Heights duplex where the pair lived in separate units, according to police and neighbors.

Just after 8 a.m., authorities said, police were called to the home in the 700 block of Capitol Heights Boulevard on a report of a domestic dispute. In front of the house, they found Richard Marcellous Wilson, 30, with a gunshot wound. He was taken to a hospital, where he died.

Police said Wilson’s wife fired the fatal shot”.

The circumstances of the incident are unclear, but police think that the shooting “appears to have been in self-defense,” said Cpl. Mike Rodriguez, a spokesman for the Prince George’s police department. Wilson, police said, had violated an active protective order when he attacked his wife.  About three weeks ago, McKinney said, Wilson’s wife told a group of neighbors that she and her husband had physically fought and that she had been granted a protective order against him. The wife exchanged phone numbers with the neighbors, McKinney said, and asked them to make sure she got in and out of her house without incident every day.

“I never saw her scared,” he said. “She might have really feared for her life and did what she needed to do to live another day.”

McKinney said Wilson’s wife had a security job.  {{Knew how to handle a gun??}}

Online court records indicate that she had made allegations of violence against Wilson. He was charged with violating a protective order May 15, and about a month later, court records show, he was found not guilty on an assault charge after his wife “invoked marital privilege after oath.”” . . . . (Sounds like was not prosecuted for the earlier violation, and possibly came at her again..))   




“Mother’s Day Assaults”



So, is it women assaulting men on Mother’s Day, then? ??  Not here….




Man arrested for alleged Mother’s Day beating

May 13, 2009 – 9:00 PM


By Ildefonso Ortiz, The Brownsville Herald 


A Brownsville man wanted for the alleged assault of his wife on Mother’s Day was arrested Tuesday on the outskirts of Beaumont as he tried to make his way to Florida, Brownsville police said.

Gavino Pecina, 32, was charged with two counts of aggravated assault with a deadly weapon, one count of aggravated assault, one count of assault, one count of burglary with intent to commit assault, one count of unlawful restraint and two counts of interfering with a 911 call at the time of the Sunday morning assault, said police spokesman Sgt. Jimmy Manrrique.


The assault took place at about 7:40 a.m. Sunday (Mother’s Day) in an apartment at 1025 Wild Rose Lane, where the victim woke up to the horrifying sight of her estranged husband holding a kitchen knife to her neck, police said.

“They had been separated for more than two months,” Manrrique said. “The victim said she was asleep with her 6-year-old son next to her when Pecina began the assault.”

After placing the knife on her throat, Pecina ordered her not to yell as he tried to drag her into the bathroom – while the couple’s other children ran into the room, police said.

The victim, who was not stabbed, tried to call police with her cell phone, but Pecina yanked it away, crushed it and punched his wife repeatedly in the face, Manrrique said.

“He then began stabbing himself in the chest in front of the children and also stabbed the bed,” he said. “Pecina then ordered the children to get his gun.”

The children were not able to find the gun {{HOW DO YOU THINK THEY FELT?}} so Pecina went to a storage shed and retrieved a sawed-off shotgun.

“He pointed the gun at her (his wife’s) head and then hit her on the head with the shotgun,” Manrrique said. “Then he punched her six times with closed fist. He placed the gun to her head again and struck her two times with it.”

Since the children had fled the room, Pecina became worried that they had called police and fled in a maroon colored Ford F-150, the spokesman said.

Investigators were able to find the vehicle at 1959 La Posada Dr., where some of Pecina’s relatives live , but he wasn’t there, leading investigators to believe he might have fled, police said.

Pecina is facing more charges, including violation of a protective order and retaliation since he called his wife Monday the day after the assault, Manrrique said. There was an emergency protective order put in place after the attack, Manrrique added.

The suspect is also facing the charge of threatening a peace officer after he made repeated threats to one of the investigators, police said.

Here are some fatherhood programs (from the “*.gov” site) for Texas.  I clicked on the map:



Here is one of them I clicked on, called “Family Initiatives” and located, it seems in Austin.  It leads to a page of the Attorney General’s website


Please note that the word “Family Iniotiatives” comes under the “Child SUpport” division.


Family Initiatives

The Family Initiatives (FI) section of the Child Support Division acts as a catalyst for family-centered child support. FI leads special projects and ongoing programs that enhance the Child Support Division’s ability to respond compassionately and effectively to the changing needs of families and children in Texas. Family Initiatives works in collaboration with community and faith-based organizations, courts, schools, legal aid providers, and other public agencies. These programs lead the nation in efforts to promote responsible fatherhood, conduct parenting and paternity education, increase non-custodial parent access to children, and provide services that encourage stable family formation.


Guess the Pecina’s, and the unnamed, but not quite dead man in the car in Houston, hadn’t show up on the court radar yet, no child support order was likely in place, and he hadn’t been taught about responsible fatherhood, and shared parenting.  Guess they will have to redouble their efforts, to a wider arena (see paragraph above).  AFTER all, TEXAS IS LEADING THE NATION, AND THE INITIATIVES HAVE ONLY BEEN AROUND FOR 16 YEARS.




Seriously speaking, please browse down this last link, you will learn about about these programs — at least their names.  Note:  Access and Visitation.  We want them Dads (ALL them Dads) back with them kids, before they kill themselves, their wives (suspected or real) new boyfriends, or their wives, or their kids.  We want those kids (the ones that survived Fathers’ Day and Mother’s Day) raised right, and as we all know, President Clinton told us, we need a DAD in the house to have strong families.  Mabye we could retract the VAWA and domestic violence laws, and save us all a lot of conflict and false hope.    Women, of course, may still be missing work from black eyes, trauma, or still having been killed (or abducted), so I’m not quite sure how this will play into the nation’s bottom line, financially speaking.  But you, know, we have to all tighten our belts and get Dads Back.  We will bend (our laws) over backwards to make it happen, and we (nationwired) are definitely willing to sacrifice whatever (adn whomever) it takes, to return to those two-parent, heterosexual households.  


(Suggestion:  Stop misleading kids in elementary school, if this is national policy, OK?)


(NOTE:  I am heterosexual. I just prefer to have sex with a man who has a little self-control, and can differentiate between love, and assault, as well as between a person and a piece of property.  And, incidentally, who believes in marriage without worshipping it.  Oh, and is brave, because there’s still an ex in the mix.  Now you know why I was in a female-headed household so far).







I have just given you several incidents of WHY in SOME cases, children of “female-headed households” may be more prone to some types of emotional, psychological, and financial distress.  If this is still unclear, go see

 http://www.acestudy.org.  Which dates to 1998, and somehow got ignored in all the proclamations, and initiatives above.


“Fatherhood” in real life is like “motherhood.”  It’s a job learned best on-the job, with close support and friendly supervision.  Maybe it’s a calling.  


But as processed through “Fedu-speak”, spoken into being, and enforced nationwide, it’s a religion! and detrimental to your inalienable rights — including, to choose religion, and to some people, all genders, all ages, to life.


(At least that’s my First Amendment opinion, excercised.  Like muscle, or brain, those rights are “Use it or lose it.”)


Written by Let's Get Honest|She Looks It Up

June 24, 2009 at 8:20 pm

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